by hsdecktech - 4 years ago     show comments

Yesterday, we published my interview with Senior Esports Product Manager for Hearthstone, Alex Charsky. If you haven’t read that yet, you may want to check it out first. This interview could be seen as somewhat of a “companion interview” in which we cover many of the same topics, but with a slightly different slant. This interview is with Drew Higbee, Hearthstone Product Manager. Drew has been on the Hearthstone Esports team longer than anybody else. His focuses are on Hearthstone esports broadcasting generally and on the Grandmasters program specifically.

The following interview has had minor edits for readability and flow, but the contents remain unchanged.

Blizzpro (“BP”): I just spoke with Alex Charsky yesterday, and, from speaking with him, I understand that you two have some overlap in your duties, so maybe a good way to start would be to go over who you are and what your specific duties are?

Drew: Sure, yeah. I’m Drew Higbee, I’m a product manager on the Hearthstone Esports team. Alex Charsky is another product manager on the Hearthstone Esports team. My primary focus is centered around the broadcast portions of Hearthstone Esports, in particular, the broadcasts for Grandmasters and Masters Tours. I also work with a bunch of our third-party organizers on the pieces of their licensing and things like that to go with their broadcasts, which includes making sure they get the right assets from us, answering their questions about how Hearthstone is presented or displayed, how we do that top hand versus bottom hand thing, all those types of questions. I also speak to organizations about upcoming changes to our programs, specifically stuff like Grandmasters and stuff like that.

BP: After all these years, that top hand, bottom hand thing is still a tricky bit, huh?

Drew: Yeah, it’s still tricky.

BP: In terms of the broadcast aspects, we just got an announcement of a new partnership with Youtube. How’s that going? Were there any special challenges switching over?

Drew: I wouldn’t say there were any special challenges or anything, I think it was an exciting opportunity. We’ve been on Youtube for many years with all of our VODs and stuff, and those have always performed very well—we reach a large audience of players who are very into video on demand content, in part because they can’t catch our events live. And as we travel around the world with our Masters Tour stops—there are six of them this year—it will be even moreso the case than any other time in Hearthstone’s history, at least as far as first-party events, that we will have these events in different timezones than maybe what our core audience would be in, so I think having a strong partnership with a platform that is very well known for video on demand is great for us because it takes the broadcast we are doing right now and it immediately turns them into a VOD, right away, that everyone can watch. We’re very excited about that. The game team has always put all of our trailers and things like that on Youtube, for years, so we’re excited to be a part of that.

BP: That’s a good point about how the esports structure kind of begets a partner that is more focused on VODs as opposed to a partner that is more focused on the live streaming aspect. But, that said, there were concerns that the numbers were low yesterday.

Drew: Oh, I think that’s one of those things where, okay, on our previous platform we had an established live channel for six years, and not only that but we did live game launch events on that channel. I don’t know if you remember, but about five years ago we broke a record for highest concurrent viewership on that platform. This is a new live streaming platform for us. It’s obviously an established live-streaming platform and we’re happy to be on it, but it’s going to take a little while for people to migrate over and learn that it’s the new home for Hearthstone Esports, so I’m not particularly concerned. It’s also just day 2 of the tournament, usually we see our highest viewership on day 3, when we get to the do-or-die matches of the Top 8, and the excitement that comes with that. So, we’re looking forward to more growth and we’re excited to see what the future brings, but we’re really happy with all the people that we’ve seen watching so far.

Blizzpro note: Drew was definitely correct that viewership went up over the course of the weekend, but it was also evident that some people still needed to migrate over. Unfortunately, the end of the tournament also fell on Super Bowl Sunday, which, I suspect, also hurt viewership. I am hopeful there will be better viewership numbers at the next Masters Tour stop in Indonesia, on the weekend of March 20-22, 2020.

BP: Flipping it the other way to your partnership with the game team, there were issues at around this time last year, where certain cards and game-states were producing less than optimal esports experiences, with those super-long Warrior games–

Drew: –Elysiana and Dr. Boom?

BP: Yeah.

Drew: Gotcha.

[W]e’ve talked about how if those things start to exist, they are committed to being very iterative on that[.]

BP: Did you guys have any similar issues or any say in trying to avoid similar issues with more recent launches?

Drew: Yeah, I think there’s a general desire within the game team to be a lot more iterative than they have been in the past, and I think that’s reflected across the entire game state for Hearthstone, which we’re obviously very excited about—I think that’s a great way for them to have been looking at the game for about the last year and a half. Overwatch is also looking at being more iterative with their game as well. I think there’s a step in game design in general where you want to try things out and be okay with saying, “yeah, okay, that worked well, or didn’t work well, and we’re going to make adjustments from there.” I think it’s listening to the community, and I really feel like we’re a part of that. So I think the game team’s direction over the last year has been along those lines, which has been great for us as esports. Right now, there’s not really anything that’s outlying that creates those similar states that we were seeing last year, but in talking with the game team, we’ve talked about how if those things start to exist, they are committed to being very iterative on that, so I think we’re pretty excited about the state of esports and Hearthstone in general.

BP: Another thing that you’ve iterated on was the Grandmasters format, as a whole. It’s a lot more complicated this year than it was the year before.

Drew: That’s true.

BP: Are there any special concerns or challenges on your side in deciding how to convey that new structure to the audience?

Drew: Yeah, I think any time you’re making adjustments to something that already exists, you have to go explain what those changes are and make sure that the audience understands the stakes and everything. The thing that we did with these changes is we went to the Grandmasters and asked them what changes they were interested in. We went and looked at how people felt about the Grandmasters broadcast and even from Season 1 to Season 2 last year we made iterations, and now we’re making iterations again. I think the most important thing is displaying that these are some of the best players in Hearthstone’s history, and showing that off with more matches, which is what it equates to in this format where the first three weeks are essentially three standalone tournaments, back to back to back. So we’re providing them more runway to prove out how good they are, and I think all the players are very excited about that, which makes us very excited about it, too. And then, moving into weeks four through seven, having a round robin structure, so we can see everyone play against each other and show their chops, and we can really see who’s coming out as the best. And the way that the rules are written and the players differentiate themselves, that actually means that every single spot, from first to sixteenth is in contention for something, whether that’s relegation or a chance to play in the playoffs or being in the playoffs themselves, there’s a lot more excitement built into this system in that every single match matters for the entire season. Where at some point in traditional round robins, interest can kind of fade off because statistically you can no longer make the playoffs or statistically you can’t be relegated, that’s not the case in the new system. So we’re very excited about that.

BP: How do you feel about this new crop of Grandmasters now that you’ve gone through one round of promotions and relegations? Now you guys are introducing some new players to the audiences that maybe aren’t as familiar with them as established members of the Hearthstone scene. What’s that like?

Drew: Yeah, I think it’s an interesting thing. I mean, when you look back across the history of Hearthstone, in 2016, nobody knew who hunterace was. In 2017, some people probably started to know who he was. In 2018, people definitely started to take notice and then he ended up winning the World Championship in early 2019. So I think there’s always a rise of new players, and I think Hearthstone’s a really great ecosystem for that. I think Grandmasters and the way that Masters Tours play into Grandmasters still- and better highlights those players paths because it gives them a opportunity to play against these players on a bigger stage earlier and more often. When we look at some of the players, like Felkeine, he’s playing in the Top 8 right now, he’s doing fantastically. There are a lot of other fantastic players in this tournament as well. It’s about consistency, and I think every step we’ve made this year, in 2020’s rules, reemphasized that the most consistent players are going to be the players making it into Grandmasters, and we’re really excited about those ones coming up. 2019 was partially a transitional year, as we moved from the HCT system to the Grandmasters system, so I’m very happy with the players we got in. Kin is a gold medalist in Hearthstone! Who else has a gold medal in Hearthstone? Nobody. But our Grandmaster kin, who just got in, is. So that’s a cool story as well. I think I’m just very excited and very happy for all those players. So many players devote so much time to playing our game, it’s great to see them have their successes and make it into Grandmasters.

BP: Do you think the system works well for giving players that route? I know there is one particular gap, which is that gap between the grinders who are here at the Masters Tours but not in Grandmasters and the World/Global finals (with the exception of the Chinese players).

Drew: Yeah, I think that’s an interesting thing when people bring it up. I think, when you look at the ecosystem as a whole, and then you look back on the last five years of Hearthstone, there’s still entry points throughout each year in the history of Hearthstone where you enter into the system and you can make it to the big event at the end of the year, be it the World Championship or the Global Finals we had last year. That still exists in the Masters Tour ecosystem, people can play this event, Indonesia, and Jönköping, and make it to the World Championship this year, that possibility still exists. It hasn’t gone away in our system. I think when people look back on the old system and say, “oh, I went to this playoff and then I got to the Championship and I won that Championship and that allowed me to go to the finals at the end of the year, the World Championship.” I think that’s one way to go about a system. This is another way to go about the system, but I think both ways allow players who are rising stars, or just extremely consistent, to make it in to the end of the year.

BP: In terms of presenting those players’ stories to the audiences, are there special considerations or concerns with the differences between the more known players and those rising stars? We saw a couple players that we over here in the U.S. aren’t as familiar with do well here in Arlington, and with the Chinese region, we kind of tend to do that each year, since we don’t have as much of a connection to them. And then, of course, one of those Chinese players ended up winning Blizzcon and becoming one of the biggest esports stories of the year, so, how do you deal with that?

Liooon, last year’s Global Champion, came from the China region and was all but unknown to many viewers outside of China prior to her coming to the Blizzcon stage. Photograph courtesy of Blizzard Entertainment.

Drew: Yeah, I think that’s an interesting point. I think every year, we’ve gotten closer to providing more storyline from China and integrating them with our system here, and not just the U.S., I would say the rest of the World in general. I think the really good thing about how China is operating their system and providing the players to us is that there’s such a high caliber of player coming out of China. I think there was this misconception that maybe some players out of China weren’t as good in the past, but we’ve had quite a few players prove that misconception wrong. And I think, to your point, maybe it’s rooted in not understanding where these players are coming from. So they show up at the event and you haven’t seen them beat a hunterace in a Swiss tournament before, so you don’t know how great they are. I think the Masters Tours have more participation from the players from China than any of our previous ecosystems have had in the past, so we’re very excited about that. Even the last match that was played right before we came in here was Bloodyface versus a Chinese player, Syf, Liooon’s boyfriend, actually, so that was a really exciting match. I think that’s one way that we’re integrating and being able to tell those players’ stories. The other way is working closely with our team in China to get more story points over. For those players and viewers who were watching The Curve next year, we actually tried in almost every single episode of The Curve to get more information in about the Chinese players, so that’s something we’re very excited about for this year as well, so look forward to that—The Curve returns with Grandmasters this year.

BP: Oh, good, I really enjoyed The Curve. That was fun.

Drew: Yeah.

BP: Is there a prohibition on us getting VODs of the China Gold series over here? Is that something that can even be done right now?

Drew: So, as with most things, there’s global broadcast rights and there’s regional broadcast rights. There’s always different layers on how we get views on things in different regions, so we are looking into getting as much of that over here this year as we can, so we’re excited about that. I can’t say that any of that is for certain or concrete right now, but it is something that we’re really interested in, because there’s a lot of really great play in those tournaments, and they often have some really cool decks that aren’t really thought of or brought as often in tournaments outside of China. I don’t know if you remember a long time ago, but the original Holy Wrath Paladin was a very Chinese meta deck where they’d use Molten Giants with it, back before Shirvallah even existed.

BP: Yeah, for as far back as I can remember in playing card games, even before Hearthstone existed, there was always this, “oh, the Chinese team or the Japanese team brought this weird tech that no one else was working on.” So that’s always cool to see what the regions are up to, especially in Hearthstone, with China, because they are separated from the rest of the world in a lot of ways.

Blizzpro note: At the time of the interview, we hadn’t yet highlighted the French lineup at Arlington—and it hadn’t quite yet established itself as the breakout hit of the event—but that’s the same idea we discussed here. Cool!

BP: So, overall, what do you think makes for a good esports viewing experience?

Drew: I think the best esports viewing experience comes from, at its core, a good competitive system. People want to watch people who are excelling at this thing that they devote their lives to, and that they’re interested in. If you don’t have that, the competition feels hollow, and you don’t ever want that to be the case. The people who triumph, you should be able to see how hard it was to get to where they were, and you want to celebrate that with them, and for them.

I think, where you are rewarding these players who put so much time and energy into the competitive ecosystem as a baseline, the next thing you want to do is showcase each part of that journey. So, one of the things we do for Hearthstone broadcasts, which I think was unique when we started it, but has since been adopted for a lot of other things, was our coverage of Swiss rounds. Our coverage is very adept, I think, at showing off that there is this big tournament, there are a lot of people playing in it, we provide you matches all the way through the Swiss round, right up until the point where we start our next Swiss round, and we try to keep that gap between rounds as small as possible by having those games recorded and filling that time, so that you’re pretty much always in a game of Hearthstone because, fundamentally, you’re watching because you love Hearthstone. Yes, you love the people competing in the game, but you love the game of Hearthstone first and foremost. So as much game time as possible. We’ve seen viewers respond very positively to that.

The sea of players competing on Day 1 of Masters Tour Arlington. Photograph courtesy of Blizzard Entertainment.

And finally, I think telling player stories is obviously a part of any esports—or even traditional sports—ecosystem. You want to feel connected to these players and understand where they come from. Sometimes, it’s very interesting to find out more about the players and, like, “oh, wow, I didn’t know this player had a Ph.D.” when you look at Bunnyhoppor. Those are super interesting stories to hear about and tell, so we try and highlight those as well. But I think, fundamentally, showing off all the hard work that these players do has to be the core of the experience, and that’s what makes it a compelling and interesting broadcast, because you want to see people triumph at something they’re working at and that you have a shared interest in.

BP: What do you think about having a big event like this in the middle of an expansion release versus, like we had it in the past, where a lot of the events tended to happen more towards the end of expansion cycles, when the meta was more settled.

Drew: I think there’s value in both parts of it. I think what is really interesting about Hearthstone, and many other esports, is the mastery of so many different aspects of the game. So, part of the game is thinking about what’s gonna be good, theorycrafting, building decks, testing those decks, trusting your gut on those decks. For instance, I was talking to hunterace and, the night before the tournament, he said, “I’m cutting Rogue. I know Rogue is really good, but I’m cutting it. That’s what I felt; I felt like I should cut Rogue.” I think he’s 5-1 right now, so he’s doing really well—I mean, he’s hunterace, right?—but that part of it is also what makes a champion player.

Blizzpro note: hunterace ended up bringing a pretty counter-meta lineup with Quest Druid, Highlander Hunter, Highlander Mage, and Holy Wrath Paladin. He ended Swiss with a solid 6-3 record, which put him overall in the Top 36 based on tiebreakers. Players needed a record of 7-2 (and really good tie breakers) or better to make the Top 8.

There’s always different aspects and parts to a player’s game, and I think, in the past,  when we were only holding events near the end of expansion cycles, you were getting the players who were best at piloting the decks. They had the best knowledge of the lines of play, and how they were supposed to play it, based on thousands of games of evidence, and I think what we’re getting now—there’s obviously that, the technical play, not making mistakes, and really thinking through things—but you’re also getting people who are feeling rewarded for bringing things that maybe feel off-beat a little bit. I think that makes for a more exciting broadcast and it highlights another skillset of the players, and I think that players in general feel like there’s a wider variety of things they need to be very good at to be considered one of the very best Hearthstone players at any given time, and I think we’re okay with that. I think we want people to feel rewarded, and we want all these different skills to matter, and I think landing these events closer to changes—while, obviously, giving people time to prepare—is the ideal sweet spot middle ground.

Think we can recruit some Blizzard employees to a Battlegrounds esport team?

BP: There’s been no official announcement, and I don’t expect one here, but I was wondering about what are your thoughts on Battlegrounds as a potential esport viewing experience.

Drew: Well, I think right now it’s obvious that there’s a lot of groundswell and a lot of interest in Battlegrounds, not only as a competitive thing, but as a game mode for Hearthstone. It’s exciting that there’s another game mode in Hearthstone. We all love Hearthstone, and we love to play it, so give us another mode and we’re probably going to love it! So I think that’s resonating across the entire ecosystem. We have players who have played more Battlegrounds than they’ve played constructed in the past few months, but all of them are still very excited to play constructed, conquest tournaments, so I think giving people options to play more than one mode, that’s all just great for us. I think as far as Battlegrounds as a competitive thing, we’ll have to wait and see. The Hearthstone community team did a great job with the event that they ran highlighting Battlegrounds a few weeks ago. I had a lot of fun watching it, and I think most viewers did, too. So there might be more of those in the future. I think those are the types of things that are really exciting to watch, and I’m really excited about how often changes are coming to Battlegrounds, but we also have to keep in mind that Battlegrounds is still technically in Beta. So, as we look forward, that’s something we can look at, but right now I’m just excited about playing Battlegrounds all the time and highrolling some Demons.

BP: Haha, yeah, same. So, one of the restrictions, I would think, to Battlegrounds as an esport is the actual game client itself. Battlegrounds, except for that Community event on Blizzard’s own private server, can only pair with one friend, as opposed to a full lobby of eight. Are there other similar restrictions that have impacted you guys on the presentation side for the various game modes?

Drew: I think there’s a wide variety of ways that you can go about tackling issues like that. For instance, I know you’ve watched Hearthstone for a long time, so you might remember some of the tournament structures we did around Arena. I would say Arena is something that, when you look at it on paper from the features of the game mode, may be hard to structure a competition around, but we had some really fun and interesting competitions around it. We did the Lord of the Arenas, which Hafu did very, very well in, we had some Redbull ones that we partnered with them on, which were super exciting, so I think there are always ways to creatively run tournament structures with anything people are passionate about, and that’s kind of the exciting thing for someone who likes to organize tournaments. I don’t think the lack of a lobby system for Battlegrounds strictly limits the ability for people to create tournaments around it; people have come up with some really fun solutions and ways to do it, whether it’s point structures or larger brackets, queuing with two friends and seeing how they do. I’m kind of excited that in esports in general there has been a kind of awakening of the notion that just because something isn’t head to head between two players, or two teams, that doesn’t mean it’s not a competition. In a lot of traditional sports, you’re really competing against yourself: it’s a timing thing, it’s how fast can I do this, how high can I jump, how far can I throw this—I think there are other ways that esports are going to come into their own in that, so 2-3 years from now we’ll think of a larger variety of things as esports than we do right now. For instance, the World of Warcraft team does a great job with that idea.

Blizzpro note: In addition to the World of Warcraft Arena, a traditional PvP-style esport, World of Warcraft also has a Mythic Dungeon PVE esport, where team try to clear difficult dungeons most efficiently.

BP: Is there anything else that you’re excited about generally, or anything in particular you’re looking forward to this year?

Drew: I’m really looking forward to our six Masters Tours and two good seasons of Grandmasters. We have a really full slate of content this year, and a lot of exciting ways to show off the best players in the world playing Hearthstone, so I really couldn’t be happier going into this year as far as what we have planned. We’ve done a lot of work around listening and making adjustments to things we wanted to shore up for this year, and right after this event we have our Grandmasters Summit, so we’ll be speaking with all our Grandmasters in person. It’s been a little while since I’ve seen them all in person, and that’s always reinvigorating as someone who is really about making the player experience the best it can be. I love hearing feedback from them and I love talking about Hearthstone with them; it just feels good and I’m excited.

BP: Yeah, and you get to—I don’t know if it’s “meet,” but it’s at least “see” all the new ones, too, who weren’t at the last summit.

Drew: Yeah, well, I’ve made it to every Masters Tour so far, so I was able to see them and congratulate them on moving up the rankings at the time, but some of them were statistically very likely to make it into Grandmasters after winning, so it was almost like meeting them as Grandmasters.

Me: Right! Well, it was great chatting with you, thank you for your time.

Drew: Yeah, it was awesome, thank you so much.